A Verbatim Conversation With A Born Again Christian

christian.symbolsA group we regularly encounter on our Daw’ah stalls are ‘Born again Christians’. They are quite challenging to discuss religion with since it is extremely difficult to agree on common principles. We find them to be introspective, as they tend to talk about their feelings and emotions. They tell us ‘I experienced the Holy Spirit and the love of Jesus and that is how I know he died for our salvation’. We feel they lack objectivity because their approach could be applied to every religion. There is no criterion for the truth. It is whatever they ‘feel’ to be true without having the need to justify it using rational deduction or empirical evidence.

Below is a verbatim record of a text message exchange I had with a Born again Christian:

Born Again Christian: i came to talk to ya the otherday as u and your team were out in market street but one of the elder ones told me to go away and got quite aggressive towards me. U sed u were going to show me discrepancies in the bible, do u have facebook or skype, cos U made it clear u wud show me and I would be happy to discuss them Sonny (The Geordie Christian)

Me: Contact me via this number or attend the table next week. Just one quick question as it is quite late, need an early night my brother.. can you find me a verse in the Bible where Jesus (may peace & blessings be upon him) says “worship me”?.. You can bring it with you next week.

Born again Christian: yer sure will do, thanks

(3 days later, the born again Christian texts back, probably frustrated as it dawned on him no where does it say this, to his surprise of course)

Born again Christian: Jesus says anyone who wants to be saved must become like a child, as a muslim you have fixed thoughts and beliefs about the bible, so even if I showed you it wouldn’t effect your stance on the Divinity of Christ because you don’t believe His words in the first place. You would have to humble yourself and lay aside any presuppositions you have as they will be the very thing that hinder’s you from entering the kingdom of heaven. I would simply read the gospel of John and u will see Jesus as God all over the place, to not see it would be ignorance, once again it’s a matter of humbling ourselves, God is no respector of persons. “Anyone who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father” – John 5:22-23

Me: Hi please show me where it says “worship me”..

Born again Christian: u know in the bible Jesus never said the exact words ‘worship me’. But we know that when He was worshipped He gladly recieved all honour and praise. John 20:27-28. He said you must honour Him exactly the way you honour God the Father

Me: Oh, so he (may peace & blessings be upon him) never said even in one place, “worship me”..?.. hmm.. How about any references to Jesus “I am God”?

Born again Christian: you would have to humble yourself, become like a child, forsake your own wisdom and knowledge, the standard for heaven is perfection. Trust alone in the perfect life of Christ and forget your good works..they aren’t good enough, i’m not good enough, no one is only Jesus, only Him alone

Me: Only Allaah knows if I’m humble my dear friend. But in the meantime, keep looking for the references..

Born again Christian: oh what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul (Matt 16:26). May Christ have mercy on your poor soul, ‘take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.’ Matt 11:29

Me: ???.. never mind.. atleast you tried my dear freind.

Born again Christian: I did try, ‘Yet you refuse to come to me to have life.’ John 5:40

Me: Let me give you some references from your own tampered references which admittedly you can not substantiate it is from the Creator since it has numerous contradictions along with no references whatsoever to the fundamentals of your beliefs which is Jesus (may peace & blessings be upon him) said “Worship me” or “I am God”..

 “…and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.” (John 14:24)

 “And this is life eternal, that thru might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent” (John 17:3)

 “But of that day or that hour knows no man, neither the angels, nor the son, but only the father” (Mark 13:32)

 “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One.” (Deuteronomy 6:4)

 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One.” (Mark 12:29)

“My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)

 “My father is greater than all” (John 10:29)

 “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.” (John 5:30)

 “And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” And he said unto him, ‘why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:16-17)

 “Ye men of Israel hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know” (Acts 2:22)

 “When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, ‘Who is this?’ The crowds answered, ‘This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.’” (Matthew 21:10-11)

 “But of that day or that hour knows no man, neither the angels, nor the son, but only the father” (Mark 13:32)

Born Again Christian: do u believe them scriptures? What makes u believe them and deny the ones I quoted? I think your being very inconsistant. U seem to deny the any scripture that clearly teaches Jesus is God, infact u deny the bible is the word of God then u quote it. Can i ask, u know the verses u just quoted do u believe they are 100% pure God’s words to mankind? U must read Hebrew chapter 1 and Philippians 2:5-10. Such glorious verses, goodnight, speak soon man!

Me: I’m merely pointing out the inconsistency of the tampered book that you follow.. you see, contradiction after contradiction due to the addition of man to the original word of the One creator, mistranslation after mistranslation. Why even follow something which can not be ascertained for its authenticity & preservation?? The oldest Bible we can find is in the Greek language but did Jesus (may peace & blessings be upon him) never spoke Greek.

Was Bible confirmed by Jesus (may peace & blessings be upon him) himself? You see, the religion you follow is that of Paul, heavily influenced by Paganism, hence why you have the trinity & Christmas.. no original sources for these whatsoever..included way after, after the counsels at Nicea.. read up my friend. The Lord created you with an intellect, its a blessing.. don’t put it to bed. Use it, investigate.

Did you know the bible was written many years after the death of Jesus (may peace & blessings be upon him)? That it was never confirmed by him? That although it has remnants of the Gospels of Jesus and some of his recorded sayings, the Bible is actually a collection of books, and the word itself is derived from Latin word meaning collection of books… (Which was decided upon, what would remain, added in, taken out, hidden etc by Paul & the Roman Empire).

Come to think about it, the actual word “Trinity” isn’t even mentioned in the Bible. Why would such an important concept in your faith be not explicitly mentioned in the Bible?

I‘ll be nice and explain a little. You see, by the year 1300, there were hundreds of different Gospels in circulation. The Trinity was formulated by Anthanasius, an Egyptian deacon from Alexiandria at the Council of Nicea, organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine in 325 CE (or approx) to settle doctrinal disputes. The emperor was from a pagan background and favoured the Trinitarian view of Christianity, thus the 4 tampered Gospels which supported his desires were chosen by a majority vote.. oh, and the.Sabbath was shifted to Sunday

(He wasn’t expecting this amount of knowledge on the lack of authenticity, preservation & contradiction so he asks..)

Born again Christian: can u please txt me where y r gettin ur info from. What book and page number? What website?

Me: The info?.. the history & concept of no authenticity & preservation, my own memory..

Sources of blatant contradiction to the made up verses of mankind.. just notes I’ve acquired upon my own research into the matter..

It’s simple, we believe in the Qur’aan because of its imitability, not.because of blind faith. It’s source can be from no other than the Divine based upon surrendering that a man could not come up with such a revelation for several reasons 1400+ years ago, and its preservation both oral & written can be testified to, by both Muslim & non Muslim academics.

 It’s teachings make sense:

Intellectually, Spiritually, Physically and practically. What comes from the Truth is the truth. That the only Diety worthy of worship is Allaah since He is the only God, and His Final Messenger to mankind is Muhammad (may peace & blessings be upon him), to whom He revealed His Final Preserved Revelation to, which is the Qur’aan. That’s it!!

 If you choose to follow what to you follow, then you can do that. No sweat of my back. My human concern for you is of course that you follow what is the truth as I want what is best for you, and my duty as a believer is to simply convey the message to you. There is no compulsion in religion, but verily Truth stands out from falsehood..

I am simply a lay person, a servant of the Creator, trying his best to stick to what He the Creator loves, whilst hoping for his limitless love, mercy, forgiveness & bounties, whilst refraining from His anger. I wish you luck in your research my friend..

If I’ve said anything other than the truth to upset you, please forgive. I am only human & I make mistakes. Only our Creator who calls Himself Allaah is free from any defect, different from His creation, above His Creation, with us in His infinite Knowledge. Goodnight

Born again Christian: Hey, what book, what page? Let’s not say stuff with no evidence to bak it up, I don’t think thats intellectual at all. Jesus commands u to repent and follow him. Can I ask a straight up question? Does God love you personally? And do you love him. The reason I believe the trinity is because with a consistant reading of scripture you can only come to conclusion that God is One God but co-exists eternally as three persons. Father, Son and Spirit. To say the trinity is made up years later is irrelevent as the original txts clear teach it anyway

Me: I’ve given you the references to those verses where it contradicts itself all over the place.. there are of course a lot more.. so that is *evidence* in itself my friend..

Secondly, re the Constantine, Council of Nicea, etc.. just research it yourself. Find out about the History of your own religion.. be critical, like I was with the Qur’aan. I mean, if I was a Christian, I would want to investigate the authenticity of my religious book, the History of its compilation, evidence of its preservation etc..

Does God love me personally? I’m not God, so I can’t answer on His behalf, but I would hope so as He is the All – Loving (Al-Wudud) and He Loves those who love Him by following the guidance He has sent to the best of their ability..

Anyway, I’ve got nothing more to really say. I don’t want to be disrespectful, but I don’t want to waste the precious time I have where I can be doing a lot of other good, studying, spending time with people etc..

I’ve left you with some questions so its up to you to investigate..

Take care

Born again Christian: You talk as if I havn’t researched, I feel confident that the bible is the word of God not just because of it’s authenticity and it’s historicity but because Jesus saved me from my sins and ultimately eternal destruction. I agree, thanks for your time. I’m sure we’ll see each other when i’m in town.

Me: Buddhist can say the same that the teachings of Buddha saved him, that Rahma saved the Hindu. Anyone could say anything if that was the standard of bearing truth.

Like I said, a religion has to be compatible with:

1- mind/intellect

2-body

3-soul

and be

4-applicable.. have solutions to modern day problems

 The sources have to have a Divine origin. The sources have to be consistent. It’s message cannot be contradictory. It has to explain its core tenants explicitly by mentioning “Trinity, I am God & Worship me” by Jesus (may peace & blessings be upon him). Something which it simply doesn’t meet. Until you can provide evidence of authenticity, preservation, internal consistency, that it is compatible with the mind, body & soul, that it is applicable, all of them, not in isolation, then there is very little point in engaging in conversation..

Quoting scripture to someone who has clearly identified reasons to why it is tampered, along with reasons of illogic teachings both mind/soul, is of no use. I wouldn’t quote verses from the Qur’aan to you until I proved that it was from the Creator and had been Preserved..

Have a nice day my friend

Born again Christian: The bible is all them things. One thing is for sure is that there is power in the blood of Jesus to save the sickest sinner of whom I am the foremost. You see truth set’s you free and Jesus said ‘if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed.’ God’s ways are higher then ours and his thoughts are too, the fact that God is One God yet exists in 3 persons doesn’t make him illogical but it shows that he is higher in all ways and surpasses natural limitations. However the trinity is a big topic and would need to be discussed in person to really show the validity of it. Well as the preacher says: “Defend the bible? I’d soon have to defend a lion. You don’t have to defend the bible you just let it out of it’s cage.” C.H.Spurgeon.

Do u think your good enough for heaven?

Me: Allaah knows best. The One who created everything. I only hope that I stay true to His teachings, fulfill what is required of me via submission to the best of my ability, and that my Lord shows his abundant Love, Mercy & Forgiveness to me…

Born again Christian: God is just and cannot overlook your sins. Jesus said that lusting over women is adultery in the heart and hating someone is murder in the heart. Being a good muslim will never clear your sin problem. You need to repent and believe on Christ and Christ alone then you will know you have eternal life and not live each day thinking ‘he loves me, he loves me not, he loves me, he loves me not.’ There is true and everlasting forgiveness with Christ and it’s free for you but it came at a great price for Him.

Me: Again, I repeat,

Until you can provide evidence of authenticity, preservation, internal consistency, that it is compatible with the mind, body & soul, that it is applicable, all of them, not in isolation, then there is very little point in engaging in conversation..

Quoting scripture to someone who has clearly identified reasons to why it is tampered, along with reasons of illogic teachings both mind/soul, is of no use. I wouldn’t quote verses from the Qur’aan to you until I proved that it was from the Creator and had been Preserved..

Have a nice day my friend

Born again Christian: The bible has commanded me to go and preach the gospel. In fact it even says people are spiritually dead unless they are born again, it says that people are blind and even if you show them the light they will deny it because their deeds are evil. The bible says what u are doin now is surpressing the truth (Rom 1:18-25) and you must bow the knee to Christ. God has spoke and I didn’t like it because I knew I was headin for hell but i loved my sin, but God in his TRUE mercy dealt with it (2Cor5:21)

Me: okay.. have a nice day..”

The aforementioned exchange is typical of the conversations we have with Born again Christians. Not only does their faith logically make little sense, it  does not stand the test of of authenticity and contains major internal inconsistencies.

May Allaah guide us all.

By Ghulam Haydar